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자료실
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Interview with Chong Hae Sunim of the Providence Zen Center
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편집장
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2014-01-17 03:01:15, 조회 : 35,228, 추천 : 8278 |
Chong Hae Sunim has been a monk at Kwan Um School of Zen since 1994, and became one under the guidance of Dae Kwang Sunim. Born in Woodland, California with birth name Tim Lurch, he is working as the abbot of the Providence Zen Center since 2000.
Q: I think the Providence Zen Center is a beautiful and huge temple. How large is the land? And could you tell me the facilities of the Zen center building?
A: We are on 50 acres, most of that is woods. There are about 20 resident rooms and another 10 that we use for short term guests. We have 2 large dharma rooms, and a small dharma room at the base of the pagoda. There is a freestanding house adjacent to the main building that is used for guests and of course there is the Diamond Hill Zen Monastery up the hill behind the pond.
Q: How many people are living now?
A: Currently there are 18 residents and approximately 50 Kyol Che participants practicing throughout the winter at the monastery
Q: I think it must have been a lot of labor to build this big temple. When was it build? And how?
A: Before we moved here the building was a nursing home. The Providence Zen Center moved here in May of 1979 and added the Dharma rooms and the dinning area and made many improvements. Many of Zen master Seung Sahn's earliest students worked on the building project including Su Bong Sunim, Dae Bong Sunim, Dae Kwang Sunim Lincoln Rhodes JDPSN, George Bowman, Roger Noble and Bill Highsmith. I don't know much about how they raised money because I wasn't here then. I’m sure there are many many who helped, if I left anyone out I'm sorry. As for Dae Soen Sa Nim's vow. I'm sure if you asked him why he built this place he would say, FOR YOU!!.
Q: Hyon Gak Sunim mentioned about the Pagoda at the Providence Zen Center. Was it built at the same time when the Zen center was built?
A: The pagoda was built in 90-92 by Zen Master Dae Kwang, Oh Jin Sunim JDPS, Darek Gorzewski, Scott Restivo, Henry Grevenberg, Jan Shaake, and Gary Burnnette. The Pagoda was built to celebrate our 20th anniversary.
Q: Who designed it?
A: Dae Kwang Sunim was primarily responsible, I'm sure he had some design help but he's a very capable builder.
Q: As far as I know, the PROVIDENCE ZEN CENTER is one of few American monasteries that train and ordain monks. How many monks have the Providence Zen Center ordained? Where are they working now?
A: I don't know an exact number of monks that have ordained over the years. there are currently about 28 American monks/nuns in our school, many are training in Korea. About 12 live here in the states. There are also approximately 30 more monks and nuns who have been ordained by Zen Master Seung Sahn, who come from Europe or Asia. Most of them are training in Korea
Q: And now how many monks are there at the Zen center?
A: Right now there are 6.
Q: I am very curious about American Sunim's life. When you decided to become a monk or a nun, what is required to be one?
A: First is to make contact with a senior monk or nun that can act as your Un Sa. If that person agrees to guide you in your training then you would take 5 precepts if you haven't already and become a haeng-ja. It is best if you can get you life in order before this time, getting free from debt, taking care of dental or medical needs etc. the current rule for haeng-ja training is 2 years, during which time you shave your head, wear brown haeng ja clothes, live at the temple, learn all the practice forms, work on the staff doing whatever labor is needed and follow the advice of your Un Sa and the senior monks. The haeng-jas life is a wonderful experience, very simple and concentrated. It is a time to discover if being a monastic is the right thing for you and also prepare you for ordination and the responsibilities that come. After two years of haeng-ja training, with the approval of your Un Sa you may ordain as a novice or sami.
The sami training period is 3 years in which time you would wear gray monks clothes learn the role of the young monk, continue training in the dharma room and in your working life. Usually a sami has a staff position and helps to run practice, works in the kitchen or on the grounds. It is also a time to learn the more subtle aspects of being a monk in a western society, learning about inter-personal relationships, correct relationships with the lay community and clearly upholding the precepts and behavioral expectations of a monk.
Q: Sounds like it is quite great commitment. During the period, what do they do?
A: morning and evening practice everyday, plus extended retreats as directed by their Un Sa, daily work period, and what ever study their teacher gives them. We start the day at 4:30 am and are busy till 3:30 PM. After an afternoon rest we have dinner, then evening practice form 6:30 till 8:30 or 9:00 PM, then we retire to our rooms for more practice or study then sleep, usually by 10:00 PM. Of course this varies quite a bit depending on the time of the year and the requirements of the staff.
Q: How did you like your training period? And how did you feel the difference after you completed the five year long training period to be ordained?
A: I enjoyed being a haeng-ja very much it was a time of great discovery both in my meditation practice and in the area of personal relations. It was interesting to experience all the various ways that people would relate to me. It still is! As I continued my training, I began to take on more and more responsibility at the Zen center where I was living. Sometimes I was really drained from all the work, other times it was a very quiet and peaceful time. But no matter how it was day to day, I was very happy to know that I had found a way to live that was based very clearly in the Bodhisattva ideal of helping all beings. Whenever I felt overwhelmed or stressed I would just remind myself that my life was for all beings. Somehow this always seems to keep me on track and to me let go of my personal opinions or desires. I must also stress the importance of practicing diligently and sincerely. Without this, i would have been lost.
Q: What was the role of Un-Sa sunim? And how do you maintain the relationship with your Unsa after you are ordained?
A: For the first 5 years daily contact is the best. The Un Sa is like your father, uncle, big brother and teacher all in one. There are many pitfalls for a young monk, it is essential to have the advice, encouragement, compassionate criticism, and overall guidance of someone you trust and respect. It is necessary in learning how to grow in your practice and learn how to be a correct monk. After the first 5 years the relationship is usually a bit more open. But remember monks and nuns are people and everyone is a little different, has different talents and weaknesses, different skills and needs. So, all of the above is only a guideline, everyone's situation is unique.
Q: Who was your Unsa Sunim?
A: My Unsa is Zen Master Dae Kwang. He is the abbot of the Kwan Um School of Zen in American and the guiding teacher of the Providence Zen Center.
Q: How is he doing? I heard he was sick. Is he OK?
A: He is doing very well! We are both sitting Kyol Che right now. He was a little sick last fall but is better now. He stays so busy with all of his teaching it can wear him out sometimes. Just after Kyol Che is over he will go to Asia and as soon as he gets back to the states he's leading retreats every weekend.
Q: Let me ask you some more personal questions. What does your Dharma name mean? Who gave it to you?
A: It means I can see that your hair is black and your eyes are brown. (laughs) The translation of my name is Clear Wisdom. Zen Master Dae Kwang gave it to me.
Q: When did you begin to practice Buddhism and where?
A: As a teenager in California I was doing a lot of reading and searching for some spiritual compass. At 18 I read the Tibetan Book of the Dead and although at that time I didn't understand any of it, something clicked. I began pursuing other books about Buddhism.
Soon I had read many books and especially liked Zen literature. I began to think of myself as a Buddhist when I was around 20 years old. For the next few years I mostly read books and tried to live my life with a Buddhist view. I tried meditation from time to time but found it very difficult and would give up. After a while I realized that just reading books and thinking about the Buddha's teaching or Zen teaching wasn't helping me very much. My life was still very unclear and actually running in a very dangerous direction.
At 27 I had a kind of awakening to my situation and saw very clearly that if I kept going in that direction I would soon have a big problem. Since only reading books about Buddhism and Zen wasn't helping me very much, I decide right then to begin practicing meditation sincerely and diligently. Slowly things began to clear up. I quit drinking and taking drugs, which was consuming many of my musician friends, I felt my center become stronger and I became more focused and happy. It also became apparent that I could be more helpful to others. I began to find a greater meaning in life other than my own selfish pursuits.
Q: I know it is a stupid question to ask a monk about the motivation to be a monk. But can I ask you about your resolution and vows when you decided to be a monk.
A: Before I became a monk I had already been practicing for many years. As a result of practicing, a natural sense of purpose and direction was emerging. It finally became crystal clear that I wasn’t just practicing Zen for myself but for all beings. It was then a very natural decision to dedicate myself to a life of practice.
Q: After you were ordained, where did you serve?
A: I was living in Seattle when I ordained and was honored to be asked to help create a residential Zen center there. It was very challenging because we hadn't had a residential center for many years and the earlier attempt was not successful. The older students were a bit reluctant to try again, but we remembered our teacher Zen master Seung Sahn's advice try try try 10,000 years non stop. So we did it! There were 4 people living there at first, I was still working as a music teacher one day a week because we needed the money to pay the rent. We went from having practice 2 nights a week in one location to have 12 practices a week spread out over 3 locations!
As director of the Zen center, housemaster at the residential house and resident monk it was a busy time. At first I was leading practice every morning and 4 nights per week, but soon many people rose to the challenge and we had all the practice covered by residents and sangha members. This worked out well and I was able to go to train at Providence Zen Center every winter and a few summers, while the sangha in Seattle grew stronger and many new students got opportunities to help.
The Seattle sangha helped me so much during the first few years of my training, it was a great opportunity for me to have so much responsibility and so many generous and supportive dharma brothers and sisters. I am very grateful to them all. Last year I decided to accept Dae Kwang Sunim's offer to come to Providence Zen Center and be the abbot. The Sangha in Seattle is strong and they are continuing to practice together and help many people learn to practice Zen.
Q: Well, let me think. Your statement strikes me twice. First of all, did you have to have a side job to pay the rent for the Zen center?
A: Yes for the first two years after becoming a monk I kept teaching music lessons one day a week. It was not too difficult and it really was necessary to help the Zen center with the money. My job was to help the center. If that meant to go teach one day, that was one to help. It did become difficult after a while because I got very busy with Zen center things and was going away twice a year for away to Kyol Che, so it was difficult to keep the music teaching going with so much coming and going.
After two years we built a fifth room in the basement of the Zen center so I could live there without paying rent and this room also became the Zen center office. I guess my life so far as a monk has been a bit unusual. It would be better for new monks and nuns to take a more traditional approach and try to live in a monastic community and get a thorough training before going alone to a new Zen center. But I just tried to do the best I could in the situation that appeared.
Q: It is quite unlikely maybe in Korea. Second, were you a musician?
A: Yes
Q: So, you are a musician who became a monk...which is a quite unusual career. Let me ask you one by one. As far as I understand, you become a monk or nun to get out of the worldly business and concentrate on practice. However, you had to work outside the Zen center. I think it is too tough for a monk. How did you accept the situation? How long did you have to work?
A: Being a Zen monk means to perceive any situation clearly and do what you need to do to be helpful while keeping a clear mind. When I talked to Zen Master Seung Sahn after my ordination I explained a little about the situation in Seattle and he said "No problem, just do it" that was very wonderful teaching that I would remind myself of very often. It is so simple and clear. Whatever you’re doing, just do it! How wonderful!
As far as getting out of worldly business and concentrating on practicing, I don't think we can ever get out of worldly business, this world is a suffering place and we are in it no matter where we go. Our job is to be clear and help. Sometimes that means doing a retreat and practicing meditation, becoming clear. Sometimes it means being involved in "worldly business" as you call it and helping people that way.
In my life it has been a combination of both - sometimes in retreat sometimes in the secular world, but I always just try to help. Great Zen Master Lin -Chi said , "One person is sitting on top of a lonely mountain peak yet he has not removed himself from the world. One person is in the middle of the city streets yet he has no likes and dislikes. Now which one is ahead? Which one is behind?” He also said, "One person is eternally on the road but has never left home. One person has left home but is not on the road. Which one is worthy to receive the alms of human and heavenly beings". So you see, how we keep our minds moment to moment is much more important than what kind of environment we find ourselves in.
Q: I hope the situation will improve for American monks/nuns and Buddhism soon.
A: We don’t want too good of a situation or we’ll get lazy!! (laughs) Difficulty is good practice.
Q: Let's move on to an amusing topic -- music. How was your life as a musician?
A: Life as a musician is difficult, I enjoy music very much but the business of music is not a very healthy one, at least it wasn’t for me. I played all kinds of music, I traveled all around the US. It was fun at times but I also witnessed and experience a lot of suffering. Many of my fellow musicians had big problems with drugs and alcohol and were very often angry, unkind people. I had many dear friends who were wonderful people but I often saw the music world eat them up and in some cases totally destroy them. My heart really broke when my best friend, whom I had played music with for many years, died at a very early age. I think it was then that I decided to become a monk.
Q: I saw you playing guitar on Buddha's Birthday. In a Korean Buddhist's view, it is kind of surprising thing. How often do you play?
A: These days I don’t play much. Usually only at our big ceremonies if someone asks me. I enjoy making and playing bamboo flutes, which is a wonderful way of meditation. If I can use music to help connect people with practicing or to enhance to community feeling here at the Zen center I will, but I don’t have any aspirations to become a “music monk” or anything like that.
Q: O.K. For you musical life is kind of far away from you now as long as it doesn't help the Sangha and the Zen center. So, I am not going to ask you about it any more. However, still I have more questions about monks' and nuns' lives in America. Because of the American religious setting, I believe American monks and nuns may have special experience outside the monastery. What is the general response to your being a monk? Was there any problem from your parents or family when you made the decision? And how do non-Buddhists treat you when they see you? Do you have some interesting episodes?
A: I didn't get any negative feedback from my parents or other family members. I ordained while in my thirties so perhaps that made it a little easier as far as family acceptance is concerned. Actually my family has been very supportive. Being in the United States as a monk is very interesting. Whenever I go out it seems my presence causes a bit of a stir. I am often approached and asked questions about my clothes or if I am a monk etc. I have never had a negative interaction with anyone, but sometimes I overhear comments about my unusual appearance. Occasionally I get startled looks from people who don't know what to think, but once I have a chance to speak to someone we always seem to have a very nice interaction. Perhaps I can give them some helpful teaching or they can help me I some way. I have gotten used to being a little different and have come to accept it as an opportunity to help broaden the minds of western people and to help them be more tolerant and accepting of other religions and cultures.
Q: you said there are 18 residents and among them six are monks and haeng-ja, which means 9 people are lay people. Could you tell me about them briefly?
A: There is a nurse who has lived her for over 10 years, a Brown university professor, two full time college students, a young man visiting from Korea, a man who works for the phone company, a woman who is retired and is spending time helping around the center,, a young man on disability who works part-time for the center. A woman who is a speech therapist for young people, and new resident who is a professional photographer. Returning soon will be a construction contractor who has been here for many years and a woman who is a graduate student in physics. We are often visited by one of our school lay teachers who stays here when he is in the states on business.
Q: Such residential Zen center system is not common in Korean temples. What is the merit of the system for the Zen center and the residents?
A: Zen Master Seung Sahn has always encouraged his students to live together and practice together. He says it's like putting many potatoes together in a big pot and stirring them all around. They bump into one another and all get clean together instead of having to wash each one individually. When we practice and live together we can see our karma very clearly. in this way we help each other become strong and clear. We learn how to put our small i- my- me- opinion aside and join together in harmonious action. This isn't so easy to do if you live by yourself and aren't challenged to bring your clarity into your everyday life. it is also very helpful for young monks to be exposed to the lives of dedicated lay practitioners. This helps young monks get insight into the difficulties and wisdom all kinds of people. Lay people often have great wisdom to share with monks, many of the lay students in our school have been practicing very sincerely for many many years so we can all learn from each other.
Q: And what is required to be a resident there?
A: We require that a potential resident has participated in at least 4 days of a retreat in our school, that he/she meets with myself and our guiding teacher Zen Master Dae Kwang. we like them to come and stay for a few weeks to let us get to know them and for them to see if they want to live here. They must be willing to meet a minimum weekly practice requirement of 6 mornings per week and at least 3 evenings and because we live far from a town it is necessary for a resident to have a car and a job. Just about anyone can come for a shorter visit if they want to practice.
Q: Can Koreans come to the Zen center to be residents? How many Koreans lived here at the Zen center? Do they visit often?
A: Yes. Many Koreans come here as you yourself did, especially since Hyon Gak Sunim's book has created such interest in our center and our school. In the past years 6 Korean young people have come for extended visits. I would be very happy if more Koreans came for a visit or would inquire about residency.
Q: So, you might have seen the difference in attitude between Korean Buddhists visiting the PROVIDENCE ZEN CENTER and Kwan Um School's American Buddhists?
A: Koreans often have a whole lifetime of experience with Buddhism and temples. They are perhaps surprised with what they find here because our style is a little different, as you have seen. But I also sense that Korean people really appreciate what we are doing and are very touched by our effort.
Q: I just heard that Seung Sahn Sunim's health is not good enough to make a trip to the PROVIDENCE ZEN CENTER for the Buddha's Birthday. Is it true?
A: His health is always a concern. His doctor suggested that he would be better off if he didn’t travel. So he’s staying home.
Q: Now Kwan Um School is one of the largest Buddhist groups in America with about 40 branches across the country, and many media dealt with the school. For the school to come to this point, what was Seung Sahn Sunim's role? Could you summarize what he has done and how his students has been benefited from his effort?
A: That’s a big question! I’m sure I can’t answer it very well in a few short sentences. Zen Master Seung Sahn is amazing! He somehow found a way to inspire a bunch of idealistic young people to practice Zen and make their lives clear! His effort and commitment to helping people all over the world is truly astounding. He is the embodiment of the Bodhisattva vow.
Q: Many people expect that Kwan Um School will change a lot after Seung Sahn Sunim's time. And Korean Buddhists are worried that there will be only weak link between Kwan Um School and Korean Buddhism. How do you think of these kinds of concerns?
A: Shakyamuni Buddha didn’t teach “Indian Buddhism”. He taught the four truths of suffering, its cause, and the secession of suffering by means of the eightfold noble path. Likewise Zen Master Seung Sahn doesn’t teach us “Korean Buddhism” he only teaches us to practice keeping a Don’t Know Mind, attain our true selves and help this world. Anyone can try that! Then they will see that in Korea the sky is blue and in America the sky is also blue. (smile)
Q: Final question. I don't think it is really important to tell if Kwan Um School is Korean Buddhism or American Buddhism. More important is how both Koreans and Americans combine their energy to help the world. Do you have some plan for Korean and American people to do something about it together?
A: I agree, it is everyone’s job to practice and help this world, sitting here doing this interview is perhaps one way we can do that together. Anyone can come here to the Providence Zen Center and practice, and soon we will have a Korean nun here to help provide ceremonies and teaching in Korean so that even more Korean-speaking people can find a home at our center.
Interview by Jong Kweon Yi
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